This topic contains 42 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  scottsigler 4 years, 10 months ago.



    I’m still trying to process the big battle from last week. I need to go through and watch this whole season again. Did Grenn and Pyp really need to die? (sobbing)

    I haven’t read all the books yet. 1 & 2 I believe is all I have under my belt. I am a true fan of LotR, The Hobbit and the Harry Potter series. In ech case, the films deviated from the books. In the true blood series, they are so far from the books it is almost not recognizable. Who cares?? did they tell a good story? yes. fantastic. No, shame on the producer and director. But what I have seen so far in the re imagining of the stories it has been good. Tolkien had no love story subplot in his versions, the movies did. Different story, but still good movie making. My point is, anytime someone rewrites a story for a different medium, changes happen. is everyone gonna be happy? nope. but as long as the story is good and the writing is good, WHO CARES? the reboot of the star trek franchised upset people. WHO CARES, new stories using beloved characters is a GOOD thing. as long as quality is maintained and controlled.

    I got off track.

    who else was in stitches at the end of ep 9? the look on the Hounds face… priceless.
    I was sorry to see him go in ep 10. those two were a great story line and a good source of humor. the hound was one of my favorite characters.

    Tough way to learn that lesson.

    @belladonna420: I knew that one was coming, and it was still toughie. He had that fight won, but had to talk shit.

    >*POP*< goes the Viper!

    I was SO upset!!

    Yep, they’re definitely taking more liberties this season than in the past. It looks like a lot of the questions were written a while ago, so I won’t go into answering, but…..
    Littlefinger is Martin’s Machiavelli. He sets a lot in motion to promote his rise. By killing Jon Arryn, he drew Ned into King’s Landing and effectively destroyed the hold on the North that the Stark’s had. He also weakened everyone else by creating this war.
    Speculation time, as none of this is written through book 5, but perhaps he’s doing this all to weaken the West so much, that it will be easier for Denarys to come in and bring power back to the Targaryans. She’s obviously coming back at some point; at least I think it’s obvious. I guess once Ned’s head was cut off in Book/Season 1, anything can happen.
    btw… here’s a decent site that shows the differences between the books and the shows. It doesn’t list everything, and some of the things it lists seem inconsequential to me, but I believe most here will appreciate it.

    And Scotty-boy (I say that with love, but also to demean you a bit for when we go head-to-head in the who-will-be-the-darkest-overlord battle that is inevitably coming)…. keep up the great work. You’re an amazing author and great story-teller. I’ve listened to almost everything you’ve written, and I’ve bought a number of your books for family and friends. Will Pandemic be available as a Podcast ever? And I can’t wait for The Champion to come out.

    All around the trial by combat,
    The Mountain chased the Viper.
    The Viper let his eyes off the prize…
    >*POP*< goes the Viper!

    Well, if nothing else, it gave Ned Stark the boogeymen he was searching for. Littlefinger must have known, as he was on the small council as Master of Coin, that King Robert was going to go to Ned Stark to ask him to be the new Hand. Robert suspected something was up, and asked Ned to investigate. Littlefinger must also have known (as did Stannis) of the true nature of Robert’s “children” and knew that Ned would discover the truth as well. Lysa added fuel to the fire by blaming the Lannisters for Jon Arryn’s death, which fit in nicely, given what he had discovered.

    The question, in my mind, is why did Littlefinger want Jon Arryn dead?

    @bigjohn: But what impact did blaming the Lannisters have to do with the overall plot? What action did that dictate from Kat?

    Lysa revealed to Sansa that she (Lysa) had poisoned her own husband (Robert Baratheon’s Hand, Jon Arryn), at Littlefinger’s request, and then wrote the letter blaming the Lannisters, sending it to her sister, Cat.


    Well, what did you all think about the big Lysa reveal?

    I got lost on part of that one. What did Lysa say the Lannisters had done? Lysa told Kat the Lannister were responsible for what, exactly (that Kat didn’t already know)?

    And, apparently Littlefinger ain’t so little.

    Yeah, that was pretty underwhelming. In the book, it’s part of a very climactic conclusion, as i recall, and the energy was almost complete lost on screen. It was so quick, i’m not even sure everyone would even catch it. When was the last time they even mentioned Jon Arryn??!

    As for the Craster’s keep scene, it looks like ultimately that scene played the purpose of Bran seeing Jon from afar – just as the God’s eye scene did in the book – but just in a different location. So Bran still doesn’t know that Jon knows he and Rickon are alive. But I think Jon knows. Right?

    Well, what did you all think about the big Lysa reveal? I don’t know if it’s because I already knew the outcome or what, but I kind of thought it was underwhelming. What, you set off a chain of events that devastates an entire family, and starts a war throughout the entire country? Psht. No big.


    Did you ever read the Dexter books?

    I read the first one simply because I loved the series, and was so in awe at how a simple Jeff Lindsay’s simple/brilliant concept made his career (a serial killer who kills serial killers — the best log-line in the world). The book wasn’t for me, maybe because I’d already imprinted the imagery from the series, and I didn’t read any further.

    I don’t know about the whole GoT rape thing. There was plenty of it in the books, but this is a show about constant murder, child murder, war, incest, torture, castration and slavery. Before we got to the Jamie/Cersei scene, there were ample amounts of death and torture. It’s a violent series that embraces taboos.

    I do appreciate how it deviates from the book, though I think if I had my druthers I’d want a faithful adaptation. However, the books have SO much going on, I concede the impossibility of it. It would be a very interesting effort to try to direct individual episodes based on the POV chapters, or maybe a few chapters per episode, depending, but that seems very impractical.

    The meat of the story is still there; I can only imagine that pieces are being cut out or expanded so that the verbose storyline can be compressed. It’s gotten to the point that I’m happy to recognize little pieces of the book that pop up, like Pod identifying all of the banners when the Dornish came to town. For some strange reason, I really like that scene in the book. Maybe because it shows there is so much more to the Seven Kingdoms than even this monstrous story can portray.

    There’s so much original material to play with; I agree with @Marcia that some of the changes don’t make sense, but I also like to try to figure out how the writers are going to resolve some plot point by going in a different direction.

    I really go back and forth on the changes. Did you ever read the Dexter books? The show was pretty drastically different from the books and I loved it. You had these really great books on one hand and then a whole new Dexter universe on the other.

    However, with GoT, there’s a part of me that really wants this show to stay true to the books, but I know it’s not possible. They need to skip storylines altogether and merge characters. I get that. But some changes have me scratching my head. The whole Jeyne Westerling/Talisa Maegyr switch. Why? And what would have been so difficult about adding Strong Belwas to the story? And what is up with the rape scenes — first, Drogo and Dany on their wedding night (which was so much more consensual in the book), and then Cersei and Jaime. Cersei is no victim (yet), so why portray her as one?

    Some changes I do enjoy, like the whole Jaime and Bronn dynamic. That has such huge potential. I like these new Craster’s Keep scenes because it gives us book readers some mystery. I look forward to seeing where this goes. I highly doubt that Jon and Bran will reunite, but the show has given us that little spark of hope that it could happen. 🙂

    So what are y’all’s thoughts on the series straying from the books? Does that make it more exciting for you, because you don’t know exactly what’s going to happen? Or are you wishing the book would just come to life as-is?

    @scottsigler: I’m so looking forward to it. It sounds like you’ve already got things well planned out. In my naivety I thought this was still in the negotiation phase, seems much further along than that. The word “seasons” sounds nice! Can’t wait for that surprise announcement letting us know when it’s going to air. If you need any extra victims in the Japan area please keep me in mind!

    @tdtaylor: The reason I’m going to try and keep things as close (as possible) to the book’s overall plot is that the next four seasons are already mapped out. We have solid resolution for each season, and a logical hook into the next season’s drama. There’s currently no need for straying from the party line unless an actor blows it out of the park and his/her role needs more time. I’ll try, but in my limited experience there are a lot of creative people and things become a battle for ideas almost immediately.

    @scottsigler: I was just giving you a hard time. I know it’s nearly impossible to control the process from the writer’s perspective, and probably a good thing in most cases as the producers and screenwriters usually know what works best on the big screen. Some people are complaining about how Stephen King’s “Under The Dome” is straying from the book (quite a bit), but in my opinion I think we’re getting a lot more story/episodes as a result. I think all of us Junkies will just be happy to see your works being made into television and film in the future. Of course, you can always count on us to give some feedback later!

    Yes – Lord of WInterfell sounds right. Upjumped vow breaking bastard.

    Jon went with some wildlings OVER the wall – a bunch died when an ice sheet fell – and then he rode with those wildlings south to the God’s Eye, at which point he deserted them. But then the giants attacked with the rest of Mance’s force, and Stannis rides in to save the day – yay!

    There’s a great scene where the one-armed ironsmith is killed in the hands of a giant trying to get his way through an ice tunnel. He ends up dying from an avalanche, i think, and blocks the passage for the rest trying to get through.


    I thought he had offered some position – like a lordship or something – to Jon Snow if he would declare allegiance to Stannis, and rally the remaining loyal Northmen to his (Stannis’) side.

    Doesn’t he offer to make him Lord of Winterfell?


    As for Jon being made LC, I believe it is before the Wildlings attack the Wall, because he negotiates their passage south through the Wall.

    Wait … what? He lets them and the giants and all the other stuff through the wall, then smashes ’em?

    The way i remember it is that the wildlings attacked and there was no LC. Stannis shows up after having landed on the shore by Eastwatch-by-the-sea. He shows up at Castle Black in time to help drive off the wildlings, and then hangs out for a while. I thought he had offered some position – like a lordship or something – to Jon Snow if he would declare allegiance to Stannis, and rally the remaining loyal Northmen to his (Stannis’) side. But Jon refused, and chose to stand election instead, snubbing Stannis.

    Here’s what I was thinking of. I’ve been reading this site all rainy day, thankyouverymuch. LOL I’ve promised myself not to read the series again until the next book comes out, so is it cheating to read the wiki instead?

    Scroll down to A Dance with Dragons:

    But anyway, there’s a little blurb that says he fights the wights in the cave, which is what I was thinking of. I wonder if they’re going to skip all that and have Hodor fight the Crows instead. Who knows at this point, given how far they have strayed from the book in this episode.

    I’m pretty sure in the books there is no return trip to Craster’s Keep, at least not by Jon (he may have sent others in his place as LC). I believe they’re all just left for dead. And Jon certainly doesn’t know that Bran is north of the Wall. I’m pretty sure Jon assumes they’re dead like everyone else, because Sam kept his mouth shut in the books. This is how the show is spicing up the Bran story line, because there is only so much you can show with them trudging through the snow, starving and freezing. I anticipate Bran being pretty necessary once he finally reaches his destination, because his visions are an easy plot device to reveal information with.

    As for Jon being made LC, I believe it is before the Wildlings attack the Wall, because he negotiates their passage south through the Wall. I don’t see the Nights Watch holding their election while Stannis and the Wildlings are just hanging out on the other side waiting for a decision.

    Marcia, Bran took over Hodor’s mind when they were at the God’s Eye, hiding in the tower when Jon and the Wildlings arrived at the little town. The Wildlings killed that innocent man, and Jon had had enough – Summer and Ghost helped provide the distraction for Jon to get away with one or two of Ygritte’s arrows in him. Everyone in the tower watched this happen in a wicked thunderstorm that was scaring the beejeezus out of Hodor, so Bran slipped in and shut him up so they wouldn’t be discovered.

    Can someone refresh my memory about something. In the books, didn’t Bran take over Hodor before they got to the cave to fight off something? I was expecting that last night, especially after Rast made the comment that if he were that big, he’d be king of the world.

    And regarding what happened to the traitors at Craster’s Keep, no, there was no need for a second trip there because the traitors were all killed by Coldhands. They left the keep to head south of the wall, but didn’t make it.

    I don’t think Jon becomes Lord Commander until Stannis arrives. Jon leads the defense of Castle Black when the wildlings arrive, which is how he ends up getting so many votes against Janos Slynt.


    We know both can reanimate the dead (Lady Stoneheart and Beric Dondarrion for R’hllor, the wights for the Others).

    Yeah, I won’t get into that pending issue, even in a spoiler forum, because it’s going to be such a big deal. Pop culture will lose its little mind.

    So the part I can’t connect or seem to remember is this second foray to Craster’s. I thought Jon was made the Lord Commander when he got back to The Wall from his foray north.

    1. In the books, was there this second trip to Craster’s to deal with traitors?
    2. When is Jon made the Lord Commander?

    I saw them foreshadow a vote for LC last night in S04E04, so we know that’s coming, but it’s very different from the timeline in the books, right?


    @scottsigler: You won’t let them have this much artistic license with the Infected and Nocturnal series! Right? 🙂

    I’ll do my best to control that, but with just a producer and two screenwriters involved, it’s already changed. Add in a show runner, 5-7 additional screenwriters, and — the “Big Bad” in the “don’t change the source material” situation — the network, things are going to go where things are going to go.


    What on earth is going on with Bran!? I’m suspicious about the potential of him meeting up with Jon, because I kinda like that most characters never regroup in the books, but we’ll see. I do like that we saw what the white walkers do with Crastor’s babies, though.

    This is one of the things I’m talking about. Bran reconnecting with Jon? We know that’s coming, unless the series creators are just going to off Bran altogether and be done with that complicated plotline, which (in my opinion) became cumbersome in the last two books and really isn’t going anywhere. I doubt it, but maybe they think a happy family reunion is necessary somewhere in this story.

    The show has been giving us roughly one scene with the White Walkers a season. Season 1 is the prologue. Season 2 has I believe Jon catching a glimpse while following Craster into the woods and the scene in the finale with the attack on the Fist of the First Men. Season 3 had Sam killing one. Now we get this reveal. I think this is the last revelation regarding the White Walkers until we have Bran reaching Bloodraven. I imagine that will be in episode 10, and seeing a dude fused with a tree will be enough of a shock, that they’ll save any visions Bran has until next season.

    More and more I’m starting to believe the theory that the Others are the ones who built the Wall, as a definition of their border. If it was supposed to be the epically long winter that brought them some 8000 years ago, with the way how the seasons appear to work it Westeros, I would assume it was preceded by a particularly long and warm summer. This would have allowed the First Men to travel pretty far north, just like the winter allowed the White Walkers to come so far south. So far north, the men either awoke the Others or found something that corrupted them to becoming the Others. A war ensued, culminating in the Wall being established at the border. It makes far more sense the Others built a giant wall of ice than humans doing so.

    And touching on the two deities we’ve heard from Melisandre about, I wonder what parallels can be drawn between the red god and the others. We know both can reanimate the dead (Lady Stoneheart and Beric Dondarrion for R’hllor, the wights for the Others). Now we’ve just seen a human apparently converted to being an other. Is there an analogous version for the red god? Are Melisandre and Moqorro (the red priest who did some crazy magic on Victarion) just gifted magically, or are they not human either?

    I obviously need to see this latest episode, but the show has omitted some characters thus, forcing themselves to rush through and change things. Overall I think the show does an acceptable justice to the books. I’ve seen books being absolutely butchered by the TV Show/Movie. They are unfortunately trailing off and I’m crossing my fingers and praying to the TV Gods that they don’t mess it up…

    @scottsigler: You won’t let them have this much artistic license with the Infected and Nocturnal series! Right? 🙂

    I wonder how happy GRRM is with the series?

    Yeah, the white walkers bit was a TV only thing. I’m not sure why they put it in though. If they’re going to explore the white walkers more I could get it, but I’m expecting them to just leave it hanging.

    @scottsigler: I’ve read all the books, a while ago though so I’m not sure how much I remember…maybe that’s a good thing! The only episode of the show I haven’t seen yet is the very latest one (cough, not currently showing here in Japan; cough, will find a way). Seems like they are rushing the TV series a bit, kind of a Cliff Notes version, as there is so much detail in the books. I’m worried that they catch up to the last book and George RR Martin hasn’t put out the next one yet and they decide to call it quits!

    No kidding…I wanna see Coldhands

    Yeah I need to reread I think…Brans story is going way off from what I recall and what the Walkers did with the baby appears made up, although realistic.

    What on earth is going on with Bran!? I’m suspicious about the potential of him meeting up with Jon, because I kinda like that most characters never regroup in the books, but we’ll see. I do like that we saw what the white walkers do with Crastor’s babies, though.
    I’m still really angry about last episode, though. I won’t go too much into it since it was everywhere last week, but if I’m gonna be able to continue to like Jamie, I have to pretend it never happened, which is insanely depressing.

    All right, Junkies, I’ve had enough of this crap — I need to jabber with peeps who have read all the books and watch the show religiously. What’s up with this craziness? I’m on Season 4, and it’s starting to get away from the books (or maybe it’s exactly like the books, but I’ve drank too much cough syrup.

    Who’s in for this discussion?

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