Junkie Brainstorm Session: GFL/Siglerverse numbering system
scottsigler
Allright, you lazy, good-for-nothing beatniks! Get out of that got, drop your linnen and stop your grinnin'!
This year is going to see as many as six new Dark Øverlord products enter the marketplace. ARealGirl and I are starting to plan for the far future, and we want your brains (for doing stuff brains are actually supposed to do, not to put in our belly).
Soon we will release the Mur Lafferty novella THE REPORTER, a story that takes place between THE STARTER and THE ALL-PRO. We have more novellas planned for 2013 and beyond, including TITLE FIGHT, which takes place between THE ROOKIE and THE STARTER. We want to develop a naming system that shows the exact timeline of Siglerverse cannon, and have that nomenclature be included in titles. We want people to be able to see, at a glance, the order of Siglerverse books.
Remember that all Siglerverse books happen in the same universe and timeline. Things that happen in CONTAGIOUS influence things that happen in THE CRYPT, and so on. I will eventually have series that are not part of the Siglerverse, like HUNTER HUNTERSON & SONS, but those stories are not part of this discussion.
Here's a tricky part: I have four "eras" of the Siglerverse planned out:
• "Olden Times" for stuff that happens before 2000
• "Modern Day" including INFECTED, CONTAGIOUS, ANCESTOR, NOCTURNAL and anything I write that takes place in our current world
• "Crypt Era" for all the stories that take place about 500 years from now
• "GFL Era" for the stories that take place 700 years from now
• "Modern Day" including INFECTED, CONTAGIOUS, ANCESTOR, NOCTURNAL and anything I write that takes place in our current world
• "Crypt Era" for all the stories that take place about 500 years from now
• "GFL Era" for the stories that take place 700 years from now
Because things in "Modern Day" affect things in "Crypt Era" and "GFL Era," some people will want to read all of the stories in order. At the same time, some people will eat up the military SF of "Crypt Era," and not give a crap about "Modern Era" or "GFL Era." So, this numbering system has to serve the fans that want to read everything from beginning to end, as well as cater to fans that just want to enjoy their little piece of the Siglerverse.
OPTION 1 - SEQUENTIAL DECIMAL SYSTEM:
One way is to identifying each series, then tack on a "Siglerverse" number at the end. THE ROOKIE, Book 1 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.1) , THE STARTER, Book 2 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.2), and so on. That means TITLE FIGHT would be described as: TITLE FIGHT, Book 1.5 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.1.5). THE REPORTER would probably be Book 2.1 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.2.1). THE CRYPT, Book 1.0 (Siglerverse 3.1) would be followed by THE CRYPT, Book 2.0 (Siglerverse 3.2), and if I go back and write things that happen in-between, it would be THE CRYPT Book 1.5 (Siglerverse 3.1.5)
Here's where it gets tricky: say we put out eleven stories that take place between THE ROOKIE and THE STARTER - eventually, we would have to put out something like: THE MANAGER, Book 1.5.2 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.1.5.2)
PROS:
1. At a glance, you can see the exact order of the stories. When new Junkies enter the Siglerverse, if they so choose they can read the entire GFL series in order.
2. Infinitely expandable: we can keep adding stories for decades, and the system will continue even after I'm dead and some other entity takes over the Siglerverse franchise.
1. At a glance, you can see the exact order of the stories. When new Junkies enter the Siglerverse, if they so choose they can read the entire GFL series in order.
2. Infinitely expandable: we can keep adding stories for decades, and the system will continue even after I'm dead and some other entity takes over the Siglerverse franchise.
CONS:
1. What happens if I eventually add an era between "Modern" and "The Crypt?
2. Fifteen years from now, could get kludgy. Imagine ARealGirl and I find some great franchise characters in THE MVP that we want to develop with their own stories and/or series. Or, imagine Quentin's detective Frederico is a breakout star with y'all, and we want to give him a series of books. As the stories pile up, we could see cumbersone names like THE DETECTIVE, Book 3.5.1.4 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 3.3.5.1.4)
1. What happens if I eventually add an era between "Modern" and "The Crypt?
2. Fifteen years from now, could get kludgy. Imagine ARealGirl and I find some great franchise characters in THE MVP that we want to develop with their own stories and/or series. Or, imagine Quentin's detective Frederico is a breakout star with y'all, and we want to give him a series of books. As the stories pile up, we could see cumbersone names like THE DETECTIVE, Book 3.5.1.4 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 3.3.5.1.4)
OPTION 2 - DATE SYSTEM:
The other method we came up with was to just ad the date of the book's first day of action, and incorporate that into the title. For example, say THE ALL-PRO story begins on January 2, 2684, the title would be: "THE ALL-PRO, Book 3 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 2684.1.2).
We would go with year first, I think, so if we have a system that sorts alphabetically by the "Siglerverse" number, it would flow correctly.
PROS:
1. Shows clear order of the stories.
2. Ten characters max (4 for year, 2 for month, 2 for day, plus two decimals)
3. Infinitely expandable. We would have a limit of 365 possible products for each "year," but we'd never hit that number, so we'd be able to drop new stories into the timeline whenever we like without multiple sequential decimals.
1. Shows clear order of the stories.
2. Ten characters max (4 for year, 2 for month, 2 for day, plus two decimals)
3. Infinitely expandable. We would have a limit of 365 possible products for each "year," but we'd never hit that number, so we'd be able to drop new stories into the timeline whenever we like without multiple sequential decimals.
CONS:
1. Don't we still need series numbers for the stories that happen between major books? For example, THE REPORTER, Book 3.1 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 2684.5.10)
2. It might not be clear that things take place at the same time as other books, unless we put the full date range. For example THE REPORTER happens during THE ALL-PRO. Unless I put a full date range (beginning date, end date), it might not be clear that one story takes place during another. Not sure this matters as far as reading things in order, but it is a factor.
2. It might not be clear that things take place at the same time as other books, unless we put the full date range. For example THE REPORTER happens during THE ALL-PRO. Unless I put a full date range (beginning date, end date), it might not be clear that one story takes place during another. Not sure this matters as far as reading things in order, but it is a factor.
You are the fans, the Junkies, so give us your thoughts on these systems or another system.
KEEP IN MIND: ARealGirl and I are developing a massive universe that someday will include novels, novellas, short stories, comics, web series, movies and video games. Some stories will be comic-only, others might be video-game-only. We want to make sure fans that discover us 20 years from now can see the entire timeline at a glance, then best choose what they want to enjoy.
NOTE: If you want to play in this sandbox, please take time to think your system through before throwing in a comment. We don't want comments like "why don't you just number them in order?" that show you didn't read the post, and show you put down the first thing to pop into your head. This is a complex issue that we're trying to manage to better serve the Junkies.
60 Comments
This makes it consistent no matter when the book/story takes place.
THE ALL-PRO story begins on January 2, 2684, the title would be: "THE ALL-PRO, Book 3 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 2684.1.2)
more like 26840102.?? - start of date? would that be 01- 1 am? 23 = 11 pm?
Keep all the .'s out except for the part of the day.
This way if you have a story that happens to start say at 10pm and one that starts at noon on the same day, it would look like:
26840102.12 - Story starting at noon
26840102.22 - Story starting at 10pm
Heck you could expand it to mins too if need be.
26840102.0930 - 9:30 pm
26840102.2205 - 10:05 pm
Then things that happen in the "current times"
20120119.1004 - when i was typing this in.
this makes it possible to have a story take place any time and just simply show when the story "starts".
Problem is, what if the story "jumps" around in time? Could you use the #'s for chapter headings?
FDO's 2nd Degree Black Belt Enforcer
"A Black Belt only covers 2" of your butt, you better be prepared to cover the rest."
>>>[-Seth "The Hammer" Hanisek, Fullback, Woo Wallcrawlers]
...Tsolo888 <AKA Cpt. Travis Ellis> - Out
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I agree with romanda and I don't think the cons listed for option #2 are that big of a deal.
2. It might not be clear that things take place at the same time as other books, unless we put the full date range. For example THE REPORTER happens during THE ALL-PRO. Unless I put a full date range (beginning date, end date), it might not be clear that one story takes place during another. Not sure this matters as far as reading things in order, but it is a factor.
"front inside flap" if it is a hardcover or the back if it is a paperback. Add a blurb about this book taking place in between The Manager and The Owner. So I would say have the start date, but not more than that on the cover/spine.
I think you need to do a two tier system as you have made examples of but not use the initial decimal. State the era,OLD, MODERN, CRYPT, GFL, and then the book #, and sub story #, etc but keep it as short as you can. This also allows for expansion into new story eras (You can give me my own battalion in the army for that suggestion, I don't need my own tank).
let me re work your examples to show you:
( "THE ALL-PRO, Book 3 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse GFL 3) )
This is infinately expandable. Say your right and Fredericho is a big star and you start his own series, instead of " THE DETECTIVE, Book 3.5.1.4 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 3.3.5.1.4)"
Give him his own prefix. FRED 1.4 FRED 1 Fred 2.5 FRED 5.7
and update the timeline in the new books, and your master timeline on the top of the web site, which I can't seem to find one easily anywhere (web site, siglerpedia, forums) (HINT HINT (ok that suggestion gets me my own helicopter)
ok hopefully that helps. I know it is not perfect, but maybe it can spawn a more perfect idea, and does break your problem of expandability.
Let's pretend I'm a future junkie. I see these books with these esoteric numbering schemes on them, and i have to figure out whether they are just part of the title, or if there is some significance to them. If I realize there is some significance, I need to try to decode what the formula is and how I can use it. To do that, I'll either need some kind of explanation printed in the book itself, or I'll go to the website of the author to find out more. Nevermind trying to follow it all in audio form if I buy the audio book. (Matters of chronology are hard enough to read, must less listen to. Remember the Author's Note in the All-Pro?)
_________________________________________________________
Gutter Sistren whipping boy, innoventor of words, Life Coach to the Damned.
I hope I am not under thinking this situation. I like the K.I.S.S. method for any problem. Here is what I see as a simple solution.
First, ignore the whole flashback concern...If a junkie can't figure that it is a flashback they are not worthy...they should be killed...and eaten.
Here is my simple combination of what I have read from others.
1. Have at the top the ERA like you have in the GFL Series books
2. At the bottom you can put the main year that the story is centered...example 2012
3. On one of the first pages of the book have an up to date list of products from that ERA in order of the date timeline when it is set to start (flashback start not included)...example
Modern
2009
Infected (Novel) 1/1
Infected (Graphic Novel) 1/1
Scary Perry: Home Invasion (PC Game) 5/8
Presidential Files: The Blue Triangles Book 1 (Novella) 7/1
2010
Contagious (Novel) 1/1
Presidential Files: The Blue Triangles Book 2 (Novella) 7/1
2011
Ancestor (Novel) 1/5
2012
Nocternal (Novel) 3/1
4. At the end put in a listing for the link to your website and to the timeline located on the website for additional books they may want to read.
This would give them the list of books in that era and in what order to read them...a location to look up the timeline and other timelines in case the book they found is old. If we as followers of the FDO can't figure out that maybe this novella or that novel land in the timeline of another we should be...well...found unworthy...killed...and eaten!
I'm just saying...
using the 1/2/3.whatever will not work because of the idea of future books being in between these books, etc.
Having prefixes, or 1000/2000/3000 will not work because at a future date they will come back and add books in the middle of that, and if they are to fit in the "time line" then your back to trying to fit them in to some strange # sequence.
If its in there as a date then it will be simple for anyone to look up what 24560103.0444 means. Or even have this in the newer books where it shows the yyyymmdd.hhmm type thing, on the page with all the other books.
Then even if 2 books happen on the same day, there is a way to know what one is in what sequence without trying to figure out what "era" it is, or "what series". If its 1 universe, then it should have 1 date system.
Its the "siglerverse" and not the GFL/INFECTION/CRYPT-verse, if they all happen with set dates (which they seem to do) this makes much more sense.
This also makes it very easy to maintain a timeline, since all the books have the date/time on them.
Again, just my 0.02.
FDO's 2nd Degree Black Belt Enforcer
"A Black Belt only covers 2" of your butt, you better be prepared to cover the rest."
I hope I am not under thinking this situation. I like the K.I.S.S. method for any problem. Here is what I see as a simple solution.
First, ignore the whole flashback concern...If a junkie can't figure that it is a flashback they are not worthy...they should be killed...and eaten.
Here is my simple combination of what I have read from others.
1. Have at the top the ERA like you have in the GFL Series books
2. At the bottom you can put the main year that the story is centered...example 2012
3. On one of the first pages of the book have an up to date list of products from that ERA in order of the date timeline when it is set to start (flashback start not included)...example
Modern
2009
Infected (Novel) 1/1
Infected (Graphic Novel) 1/1
Scary Perry: Home Invasion (PC Game) 5/8
Presidential Files: The Blue Triangles Book 1 (Novella) 7/1
2010
Contagious (Novel) 1/1
Presidential Files: The Blue Triangles Book 2 (Novella) 7/1
2011
Ancestor (Novel) 1/5
2012
Nocternal (Novel) 3/1
4. At the end put in a listing for the link to your website and to the timeline located on the website for additional books they may want to read.
This would give them the list of books in that era and in what order to read them...a location to look up the timeline and other timelines in case the book they found is old. If we as followers of the FDO can't figure out that maybe this novella or that novel land in the timeline of another we should be...well...found unworthy...killed...and eaten!
I'm just saying...
...Tsolo888 <AKA Cpt. Travis Ellis> - Out
Perhaps a slight alteration to Option #1 - have the era names as alpha-identifiers, rather than numeric, so it comes out as something like:
OE - Olden Era
ME - Modern Era
CE - Crypt Era
GE - GFL Era
So under this system, it becomes.
Infected - ME-1
Contagious - ME-2
Ancestor - ME-3
Crypt: The Crew – CE-1
Crypt: Shakedown - CE-2
THE ROOKIE – GE-1
THE STARTER – GE-2
THE REPORTER – GE2.2
TITLE FIGHT – GE-1.5
Etc, etc.
If you replace ongoing sequential numbering with era-sequential numbering, it allows for greater expansion of the era, and therefore more flexibility for new eras. For example, if you wanted to put some of the Bloodcast/Colour is Adjective short stories into the timeline, but wanted them to occur prior to Infected, but they didn’t necessarily fit into the Olden Time Era, you could easily create the new category of the Pre-Modern Era (PE).
Or if you wanted to have ancient alien visitors beating up some dinosaurs (or collecting samples for the eventual invention of Dinolition), you could have the Jurassic Era (JE). Whereas this would fall under the Olden Times era of the current Option #1.
While there is the con of readers having to be aware of the eras (though it would simple enough to lay out in the “other books by the FDO” page, I’m not sure how, under the current system, you would number a story that, for example, comes before the Rookie, but isn’t part of the Crypt – so something like one generation before Q on Micovi would be a GFL story, rather than a Crypt story, but would it be 4.0.1 or something, to indicate it occuring before the Rookie?
(And yes, I’m sure there’s other flaws, but it’s 6am, it’s the best I can do for now).
I'd suggest yyyymmdd.time of day as he does. Simple and straight forward and also solves the problems of stories that begin on the same day.
...Tsolo888 <AKA Cpt. Travis Ellis> - Out
No one else mentioned this, but what if you color coded the eras since that is the primary distinction. As you said, people may just want to read military SF so, regardless of which number sequence you use, say you color code The Crypt era as red. That makes it immediately obvious to even the slowest student that the two reds go together. You could even color code the timeline. Or if you prefer you could color code by major groupings. Say purple for things related to Ancestor & Blue for things related to Infected.
The major limitation here is it becomes useless if printed in b&w, but I got the sense that this tagging system would be employed mostly on covers & the web so the b&w problem shouldn't crop up often.
As for the numbers themselves, I think the date system is probably the best. It naturally groups like things together. As for the associated cons I would think they were fairly minor. The majority of readers would understand the flashback technique and as for simultaneous events if the fact that they are occuring together is relevant I have to feel that would be referenced in the text. For people who want to get they're geek on the fully detailed timeline could be made available online.
I gave it quite some thought, but like you, the only alternative that I could see was using the dates. To address the very real problem of stories taking place concurrently, I do think that the simplest answer is a range. It would be quite easy to put something like the following at the bottom of each cover/spine:
2683/11/27 22:30
-
2683/2/14 14:25
or just:
2683/11/27
-
2683/2/14
if you decide that hours are redundant, as it is visually preferable. This has a number of advantages, in that it is, as you said, infinitely expandable, and you will never have awkward problems about introducing a new era or series. It also becomes readily apparent which order stories should likely be read in, even if stories are overlapping or contained within another's timeline.
Finally, a small detail; you should put a complete (to-date) timeline of all novels/novellas/anything in the first few pages. Despite never being fully comprehensive, it is an invaluable resource, and one that I greatly appreciated having in other series.
Well, that's my two cents.
I'm horrible at math and so I tend to shy away from numbers unless it's something obvious. Seeing a big string of numbers would put me off. I'm definately in favor of an INTITIAL+DATE (GFL2683 or MOD2007, CRY*, OLD*, etc.) model. You only need to add additional years (GFL2683-2684), months (GFL2683.5), or days (GFL2683.5.19) if they are significant to a specific story. Most people are capable of figuring out a yearly sequence even if you only use the main year in which the story takes place. An advantage of this is not only is the sequence shown, but if you add eras or want to separate a mini series from the main one, then you just give it a new set of initials (FRED for example or whatever seems right to you). Readers can tell from the dates that the stories overlap, but it doesn't force them to read them all if they don't want to in order to figure out the order. Any stories you give their only intitials will probably need a certain amount of explanation anyway, so it's not like the readers will be missing something if they get hooked on only a side-shoot of a larger era.
Look at the way you handled the modern era books already: readers who have read both infected and ancestor will put 2 and 2 together to get 4 that they take place roughly around the same time and have overlapping characters. You didn't need any kind of numbering or lettering system to tell them this.Don't forget to give your audience a certain amount of intelligence credit. After all, if they are into your stories, they probably appreciate the level of thought and detail that goes into them. :)
The problem, in general, is that you never tell stories the way you live life, from beginning to end, with no going back. If you write stories about the GFL, but they are side stories, then you'll probably want to keep them in GFL* anyway. Say you are telling Gredok's back story. Unless you are going to give him his own series, it'll probably be labeld something like GFL2592 (I'm throwing out a wild number here that I know will be prior to Quentin's time). That tells the readers who care that the story takes place 91 years before the events of The Rookie, but is lumped into the greater story of the GFL.
I also agree that some thought should be given for publishing some kind of timeline in the introductory pages of future books if you are going to be concerned with readers connecting the stories and think a lettering or numbering system is too complicated. Even a timeline accurate list without dates would be good enough: "In chronological order according to when they take place: Infected, Ancestor, Contagious, The Rookie, The Starter, The All-Pro". Like that. Many of the series I've read in my life (most noteably the Dragonriders of Pern) have book lists in the front that have made an effort to at least list the books, which at least tells you the order in which they were written. It helps loads when trying to figure out the author's logic. Yours would obviously be in story-chronological order, which is better, but it's better than nothing for sure.
I guess overall, I like these two suggestions best. they both have the opportunity to address your chronology problem without getting overly complicated.
On a side note, concider sometime in the long-term future publishing an "Overview of the Siglerverse" type reference book. Hardcore fans love that kind of stuff. :D I have several of those in my library for LOTR and Dragonriders of Pern. They are great to collect!
Why not add a page to the back or front of each book. This could be as complex or simple as you like...it this page would basically detail the different "eras", and then would list in order the different works. You could even make this almost like a family tree. I have seen authors do this with character trees that are out of control, so you can instantly see who that character is and what book you've seen then in before. So...for example, let's go with Infected, this page could look something like.
Old Era
work 1
work 2
work 39
Modern era
work x
work y
Infected
work z
work b
You see the idea, but then this presents the problem of...well how to we have a completed tree on older books. Easily, you don't. You add the books that are currently printed, then if something new comes out you update that book's Siglerverse tree and all books that come after it. Obviously this is not a perfect system either, but it eliminates the problem of cumbersome numbers down the line.
I like option 3 - to whit:
Each cover has the title and the year the action starts.
On the cover page inside is a line(s) stating that this story covers action from start timestamp to end timestamp.
A timestamp has the following format (as defined in DB2 - hey, that's where I live) YYYY-MM-DD-HH:MM:SS.MMMMMM
Thats Year, Month, Day, Hours, Minutes, Seconds, Microseconds
THEN, you keep a running list online that will allow anyone to print a list sorted by start timestamp at any time.
1. It keeps the cover fairly simple
2. It allows for infinite expansion, as duplicate timestamps are allowed!
3. It will always produce the correct order.
4. It's maintainable!
5. The format is set in stone and never has to be revised (a severe drawback to option 1 - take it from a DBA, don't build in a need to reformat, it is easy now, but you will hate it later)
You should take advantage of having one clean timeline for all your books and use the date system. The date system should indicate starting dates.
yyyy.mm.dd - yyyy.mm.dd" style date ranges destroy the advantages of yyyy.mm.dd notation. Use yyyy for a product that spans more that a years time and yyyy.mm for a product that spans more that a months time but less than a year. Obviously this is less accurate than a range, but it's better overall.
Book and Series labels are completely unnecessary in a date system that catalogues products in a single universe and timeline. Book and Series labels should only be used as a marketing tool to contextualise a product as it is being released. Fans will adopt these labels on wikis etc.
You do not need to preface the date with "Siglerverse" unless you intend to use the same dating system on future products that are set outside the Siglerverse.