Junkie Brainstorm Session: GFL/Siglerverse numbering system

Posted: Jan 19, 2012

by:

Allright, you lazy, good-for-nothing beatniks! Get out of that got, drop your linnen and stop your grinnin'!

This year is going to see as many as six new Dark Øverlord products enter the marketplace. ARealGirl and I are starting to plan for the far future, and we want your brains (for doing stuff brains are actually supposed to do, not to put in our belly).

Soon we will release the Mur Lafferty novella THE REPORTER, a story that takes place between THE STARTER and THE ALL-PRO. We have more novellas planned for 2013 and beyond, including TITLE FIGHT, which takes place between THE ROOKIE and THE STARTER. We want to develop a naming system that shows the exact timeline of Siglerverse cannon, and have that nomenclature be included in titles. We want people to be able to see, at a glance, the order of Siglerverse books.

Remember that all Siglerverse books happen in the same universe and timeline. Things that happen in CONTAGIOUS influence things that happen in THE CRYPT, and so on. I will eventually have series that are not part of the Siglerverse, like HUNTER HUNTERSON & SONS, but those stories are not part of this discussion.

Here's a tricky part: I have four "eras" of the Siglerverse planned out:

• "Olden Times" for stuff that happens before 2000
• "Modern Day" including INFECTED, CONTAGIOUS, ANCESTOR, NOCTURNAL and anything I write that takes place in our current world
• "Crypt Era" for all the stories that take place about 500 years from now
• "GFL Era" for the stories that take place 700 years from now

Because things in "Modern Day" affect things in "Crypt Era" and "GFL Era," some people will want to read all of the stories in order. At the same time, some people will eat up the military SF of "Crypt Era," and not give a crap about "Modern Era" or "GFL Era." So, this numbering system has to serve the fans that want to read everything from beginning to end, as well as cater to fans that just want to enjoy their little piece of the Siglerverse.

OPTION 1 - SEQUENTIAL DECIMAL SYSTEM:

One way is to identifying each series, then tack on a "Siglerverse" number at the end. THE ROOKIE, Book 1 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.1) , THE STARTER, Book 2 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.2), and so on. That means TITLE FIGHT would be described as: TITLE FIGHT, Book 1.5 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.1.5). THE REPORTER would probably be Book 2.1 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.2.1). THE CRYPT, Book 1.0 (Siglerverse 3.1) would be followed by THE CRYPT, Book 2.0 (Siglerverse 3.2), and if I go back and write things that happen in-between, it would be THE CRYPT Book 1.5 (Siglerverse 3.1.5)

Here's where it gets tricky: say we put out eleven stories that take place between THE ROOKIE and THE STARTER - eventually, we would have to put out something like: THE MANAGER, Book 1.5.2 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 4.1.5.2)

PROS:
1. At a glance, you can see the exact order of the stories. When new Junkies enter the Siglerverse, if they so choose they can read the entire GFL series in order.

2. Infinitely expandable: we can keep adding stories for decades, and the system will continue even after I'm dead and some other entity takes over the Siglerverse franchise.

CONS:
1. What happens if I eventually add an era between "Modern" and "The Crypt?

2. Fifteen years from now, could get kludgy. Imagine ARealGirl and I find some great franchise characters in THE MVP that we want to develop with their own stories and/or series. Or, imagine Quentin's detective Frederico is a breakout star with y'all, and we want to give him a series of books. As the stories pile up, we could see cumbersone names like THE DETECTIVE, Book 3.5.1.4 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 3.3.5.1.4)

OPTION 2 - DATE SYSTEM:

The other method we came up with was to just ad the date of the book's first day of action, and incorporate that into the title. For example, say THE ALL-PRO story begins on January 2, 2684, the title would be: "THE ALL-PRO, Book 3 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 2684.1.2).

We would go with year first, I think, so if we have a system that sorts alphabetically by the "Siglerverse" number, it would flow correctly.

PROS:
1. Shows clear order of the stories.

2. Ten characters max (4 for year, 2 for month, 2 for day, plus two decimals)

3. Infinitely expandable. We would have a limit of 365 possible products for each "year," but we'd never hit that number, so we'd be able to drop new stories into the timeline whenever we like without multiple sequential decimals.

CONS:

1. Don't we still need series numbers for the stories that happen between major books? For example, THE REPORTER, Book 3.1 of the GFL Series (Siglerverse 2684.5.10)

2. It might not be clear that things take place at the same time as other books, unless we put the full date range. For example THE REPORTER happens during THE ALL-PRO. Unless I put a full date range (beginning date, end date), it might not be clear that one story takes place during another. Not sure this matters as far as reading things in order, but it is a factor.

You are the fans, the Junkies, so give us your thoughts on these systems or another system.

KEEP IN MIND: ARealGirl and I are developing a massive universe that someday will include novels, novellas, short stories, comics, web series, movies and video games. Some stories will be comic-only, others might be video-game-only. We want to make sure fans that discover us 20 years from now can see the entire timeline at a glance, then best choose what they want to enjoy.

NOTE: If you want to play in this sandbox, please take time to think your system through before throwing in a comment. We don't want comments like "why don't you just number them in order?" that show you didn't read the post, and show you put down the first thing to pop into your head. This is a complex issue that we're trying to manage to better serve the Junkies.

60 Comments

Mr_Fahrenheit

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 12:22AM

If I get this right you're basically trying to create a classification system, but you need to add to it on a continuing basis. I don't think that you really want to go down the route of a numbering system at all. It's going to get super unweildy and end up like a library, with the dewey decimal system, only librarians really understand it.

Personally I'd use something like a taxonomy diagram:

[IMG]http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t374/1Rok/Verse.jpg[/IMG]

You get several benefits:

it's really expandable

You can call the books whatever you like, it won't matter

it's really easy to see where you should start without a complicated numbering system.

In hardcopies you only need to add the relevant section, fans will be able to understand exactly where the book fits by looking at an extract of it.

For the softcopy (which you've mentioned you want to move to), they can see the whole system at once and you can auto-update when a new item enters the canon.

The downside is that it can get unweildy but since you only need an extract to understand where that book fits that isn't really a problem.

I genuinely think that for ease of use by fans (especially new ones) any form of numbering system is a bad idea. A diagram is the simplest option.

It also means you can cross link stories. Take Title Fight, it happens between The Starter and The Rookie but is referenced in The Starter. If you're universe expands as much as you plan that sort of instant reference note is going to come in really handy.

You'll also have the ability to customise it with labels for different themes of content (e.g. football, military, politics) or nature of product (ebook only, videogame, hardcover only, audio only...)

--
Death, chaos and mayhem, the music of the night

Mr_Fahrenheit

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 12:25AM

[IMG]http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t374/1Rok/Verse.jpg[/IMG]

--
Death, chaos and mayhem, the music of the night

Mr_Fahrenheit

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 12:27AM

--
Death, chaos and mayhem, the music of the night

Mr_Fahrenheit

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 12:32AM

Apologies for the posting fail as I tried to add that picture (edit post chucks me back to the main page btw). Anyway you can sort of get the idea of what I mean from that, it's obviously very rough and ready but hopefully you can see how it would work. As the old saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.

--
Death, chaos and mayhem, the music of the night

Rednut

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 2:05AM

Some great ideas here but if I am reading it correctly the intent behind the numbering it is to locate each book in a timeline without having to know too much background about all the different stories of the siglerverse. If that is the intent then I would suggest just using the year.Eg The Starter would be " a GFL Story : Year 2683 Jan-May" Title Fight " a GFL Story: Nov. 2682 The Crypt " a Crypt Story: 2513-2515 You have the flexibility to put new stories where you want and nothing to decipher. There's my 2

waista

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 2:11AM

"We want to develop a naming system that shows the exact timeline of Siglerverse cannon, and have that nomenclature be included in titles. We want people to be able to see, at a glance, the order of Siglerverse books.".....

....WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE BOOKS COVER

A taxonomy diagram on the cover of every book may not be what he's after.

Mr_Fahrenheit

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 3:35AM Edited Mar 14, 2012 @ 4:43PM

In reply to:

waista

....WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE BOOKS COVER

A taxonomy diagram on the cover of every book may not be what he's after.

Ah yes, sorry Waista. Should have made myself clearer on that. I was ignoring the idea of creating a nomenclature to be included in the titles because it struck me as an incredibly bad and confusing idea. I have yet to come across a classification scheme based on numbers or letters that is easy to instantly understand and expand. I respect the FDO's ability in publishing novels, marketing and self promotion, but I think this is a bad idea.

Wasn't advocating putting this on the cover either, in the first few pages alongside, 'Also By the Same Author' type of thing. I've never seen anyone buy a book without leafing through it first.

--
Death, chaos and mayhem, the music of the night

yves_baseke_gmail_com yves_baseke_gmail_com

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 9:00AM

Being simple minded this what I hear. need books to be order chronologically but also have the capacity to group by series, subseries and have space to insert new ones. so I translate this into:

date.serie.subserie.booknumber

subserie would be 0 for the major serie

examples:

Rookie 26831126.4.0.1

Starter 26840605.4.0.2

title Fight 26840305.4.1.1

Because the date is first, you will always have perfect chronological order. bonus: your serie number does not need to be in order. you can assign it any number it would still appear in the prorper order (infinite expansion)

Since the serie number is there, you always know which books are related and their orders. the subserie let's you know that it is not part of the main serie thread but is related to it.

I would suggest make the serie and subserie a 2 digit number, so you have 99 possible series and 99 possible subseries for each. the 2 digit is to take care of the sorting order since it would have to use the string sort algorithm. it would then look like:

Rookie 26831126.40.00.1

Starter 26840605.40.00.2

title Fight 26840317.40.01.1

hope this make sense

by the way, you should advertise way more that Nocturnal is also available for pre-order at barnes and noble. I thought it was amazon only, until I stumbled and pre-order it at B&N

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 9:32AM Edited Mar 14, 2012 @ 4:43PM

In reply to:

Mr_Fahrenheit

Nice work here @mrf!

CBBC Tigress & Proud member of the Gutter Sistren

cpragman

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 11:01AM

Make me wonder what Isaac Asmov did. He wrote a ridiculuos number of stories, all in the same universe, and added more stories later all throughout the timeline. Anybody know? If he developed a system, it's probably a good one to copy.

Zoot_the_Suit

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 11:04AM

I'm a fan of charts. Regardless of the nomenclature, I need some sort of image to keep everything straight. The chart showing the chronology of the Enderverse on the Ender's Game series wiki page is a great example of this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender's_Game_(series)

In this chart, novels are in blue, short stories are red. Higher on the page is older, lower is more recent. I would suggest additional colors for games and movies. Audiobooks could have an additional color, as well, but I'm not sure.

You could stratify the chart into eras, which could help with the classification, and items could straddle different eras.

I guess if you need to force a nomenclature, I'm a fan of the SashaBGarza method. (A/B/C/D 10, 11, 20) When in doubt, ask a librarian.

Either way, if I get confused by a flat list, I want to take a look at some sort of chart to give me context.

Lone_Ghost_Jinn

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 12:45PM Edited Mar 14, 2012 @ 4:43PM

In reply to:

cpragman

the only thing I've found in a short perusal for Isaac is a chornology for his Positronic and Foundation series. He starts by using the current date of the common era. C.E. Like most scientists. Then he switches to 1 F.E. I'm guessing that stands for Foundation Era as that is where it shows up. Here's the link.

http://www.sikander.org/foundation.php

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 3:44PM

Hi FDO, Mrs Fahrenheit wading in here.

Don't put strings of numbers on the end of your book titles. Please.

There have been lots of lovely arguments from librarians and die hard geek types who have invented several perfect systems for you and ARealGirl to choose from to keep your own heads straight. Hell, you should probably employ some of them as clerks after the plaid tanks roll.

Choose a system, use it, preferably on your hard drive, but keep it the hell off the spines of the merchandise.

Like many commentators I am a bibliophile. I love books, always have, always will. MrF and I have so many books we have had to rent a storage locker to keep some of them in. I know how to use libraries, real ones, with dusty shelves and card index files. I know the dark arts of successful computer file nomenclature.

The suggestions for multi digit, "file extensions," on the end of book titles is likely to be an epic fail. It will not help anyone to see, "at a glance," where in the Siglerverse a story belongs. They will require a decoder ring the size of Jupiter to work it out.

A newbie will look at the title, think, "Wtf?" Then they will go buy something else that doesn't require a maths degree to work out the title. Maths, for which you can susbstitute numbers, scare people. You want people to buy your output. Scared people don't buy. To expand your readership, you want to draw people in, not freak them out.

Since your 'verse now intersects mine, via MrF, I'm throwing my opinion into the mix because he is a Junkie, and if I have to live with him moaning about the numbers on the titles for the rest of my life, you are going to need more than a plaid tank to protect you.

Mrs F

scottsigler

On Jan 20, 2012 @ 10:49PM

You guys, this is all great stuff. We really appreciate the time you are putting in here.

Dark Øverlord Media: We Default to the Nuclear Sølution

ScottEPond

On Jan 21, 2012 @ 4:13AM

Wowzer... lot's of great Ideas here.

My two point three five seven cents. People are visually oriented creatures. Yes, they buy books (both dead three and digital) to read the words, but when it comes down to the covers they don't want unnecessary clutter (i.e. extra text that they need to decipher to understand where the story falls into some grander universe.

Being a conveyor of visualosities (yes, I know visualosities is not a real word... I'm working on copyrighting it as I type), I am very drawn to visual representations of stuff like this. I'm leaning more toward Mr_Fahrenheit's suggestion: a visual timeline that you can include in each book to keep things tracked and let your readers see, at a glance, where a particular story or book falls into the universe you are creating.

There is some precedent of using something like a timeline. Robert A. Heinlein (the Grand Master of Speculative Fiction, in case you've lived under a rock your entire life...lol) used something similar and included it in several of his books ("Green Hills of Earth" and "Expanded Universe" I believe). Here's an example of what he did (which I really dig since it almost tells a mini-story in its own right): http://ad7am.tumblr.com/post/950068377/the-heinlein-future-history-timeline-i-owe-more

Visually, it's info-packed, you can see all the currently released stories at a glance, and most importantly it doesn't clutter your covers...

Just my four point eight six seven cents (inflation)...

"Big Fish," Dark Øverlørd Media In-Høuse Graphic Designer • CBBC Røad Captain • scottpond.com • Grand Mafioso of NH

Dark Øverlørd Media: We Default tø the Nuclear Sølutiøn

Kurt_eh

On Jan 21, 2012 @ 8:31AM

I've always enjoyed how they put a visual timeline in the front (or back) of the Star Wars books.

The only problem with that is old books don't have the new timeline. But, a link to an evergreen timeline site could work, so long as the site is maintained and updated regularly.

OJ. No sig today. Sig tomorrow. Sig always tomorrow.

On Jan 21, 2012 @ 8:33AM

I agree with Shadygirl. Mr. Farenheit's idea is awesome. A tag of some sort on the flyleaf and a timeline on the first page inside the cover lets a reader quickly see where the book generally falls. That way the timeline endures. More specific info about the books in a specific segment of the timeline (e.g. order to read them, relationship of the books) could be elsewhere if necessary or useful.

__________________________________________
Proud Member of the Wolf Pack and

Kurt_eh

On Jan 21, 2012 @ 8:40AM Edited Mar 14, 2012 @ 4:43PM

In reply to:

Kurt_eh

One last thought, while dead tree copies can't be fixed, could a timeline in ebook format be updated as new versions come out?

OJ. No sig today. Sig tomorrow. Sig always tomorrow.

Finaldrive

On Jan 21, 2012 @ 8:37PM

Ok, here we go....

I don't think adding rando letters to a bunch of numbers works well, its confusing.

What I like is the "Star Date" idea, but when you pull out the decimal points it becomes just a string of numbers that can be confusing to new readers and it kinda gives me a headache.

Thoughts on a solution that would make use of both camps....

ERA.SERIES.BOOK NUMBER.YEAR.SUB-NUMBER

ME.Infected.2009.1- Infected

GE.GFL.3.2864 The All-Pro

GE.GFL.3.2.2864- The Reporter

GE.GFL.3.3.2864- Some other book

The main story of that year would not receive a sub number as it is part of the main story line. Only sub novels and side stories would receive those sub numbers.

If new major stories are being created in the same year then a new header, similar to the "GFL Book 1"

GE.ABC.1.2864- New Series taking place at the same time

As written on a book this could look something like this:

Infected

MODERN ERA

Infected Series

Book 1 2009

ME.Infected.1.2009

All-Pro

GFL ERA

GFL Series

Book 3 2864

GE.GFL.3.2864

The Reporter

GFL Era

GFL Series

Novella 2864

GE.GFL.3.2.2864

The only issue comes with EXACT chronology. If part of book .3 starts before book .2 the exact chronology would get murky with this system. That being said a brief disclaimer at the front of a novel telling people that parts of this book take place during the same blah blah blah solves that problem.

Overall, the benefits to a system like this outweigh the limitations.

Its simple, its easy to read and doesn't take an abacus and a minor in quantum physics to figure out.

It makes adding eras no problem and overlapping series less of an issue

No power in the Verse can stop me.

Finaldrive

On Jan 21, 2012 @ 8:39PM Edited Mar 14, 2012 @ 4:43PM

In reply to:

Finaldrive

Ok, here we go....

I don't think adding rando letters to a bunch of numbers works well, its confusing.

What I like is the "Star Date" idea, but when you pull out the decimal points it becomes just a string of numbers that can be confusing to new readers and it kinda gives me a headache.

Thoughts on a solution that would make use of both camps....

ERA.SERIES.BOOK NUMBER.YEAR.SUB-NUMBER

ME.Infected.2009.1- Infected

GE.GFL.3.2864 The All-Pro

GE.GFL.3.2.2864- The Reporter

GE.GFL.3.3.2864- Some other book

The main story of that year would not receive a sub number as it is part of the main story line. Only sub novels and side stories would receive those sub numbers.

If new major stories are being created in the same year then a new header, similar to the "GFL Book 1"

GE.ABC.1.2864- New Series taking place at the same time

As written on a book this could look something like this:

Infected

MODERN ERA

Infected Series

Book 1 2009

ME.Infected.1.2009

All-Pro

GFL ERA

GFL Series

Book 3 2864

GE.GFL.3.2864

The Reporter

GFL Era

GFL Series

Novella 2864

GE.GFL.3.2.2864

Overall, the benefits to a system like this outweigh the limitations.

Its simple, its easy to read and doesn't take an abacus and a minor in quantum physics to figure out.

It makes adding eras no problem and overlapping series less of an issue

Sorry this formula should read:

ERA.SERIES.BOOK NUMBER.SUB-NUMBER.YEAR

Sorry for the confusion.

No power in the Verse can stop me.

On Jan 22, 2012 @ 2:02AM

I'm in with the simple minded crowd: do not put a number code on the cover - for the large majority of potential readers, it will be confusing rather than enlightening.

Anything requiring a cipher to understand does not add to buyers appeal.

I have no really new ideas, but would recommend a combo of several of the previous mentioned:

For timeline use a 4-digit year only and print it across top of the spine. Placed on the very top of the spine, it'll let you keep the present layout (a logo, the title, author name and publisher) - and it will be easily readable and understandable.
Do not change the short to-the-point title setup you already have. The one/two-word titles rock! I know this disqualifies my ramblings re. the precise formulation for the assignment; but I really think messing up the actual title with a numbers code would be a mistake.
In each book, on the 'Also by Scott Sigler'-page, include a complete listing (as now), but list the titles as yyyy-TITLE
Maintain an evergreen WIKI-page w. an eeeeasy address for total overview for those with early edition books.

In toto: keep it simple

Finally: I'm taken w. Mr. Fahrenheit's timeline - it's a super cool illustration that'll work wonders as a 'Also by Scott Sigler' page #2.

Garm

On Jan 22, 2012 @ 10:28AM

Sure a fancy numbering system would be nice, but for newer mebers you can add in a page towards the front of the book with a website link written on it that says "for a full siglervese timeline visit www.scottsigler.com/______". That way you can keep it updated.

or on the binding if you want to get rid of the nuber system you can put one of those square barcodes that you can scan with your smartphone that takes you to a taxonomy diagram like Mr_Fahrenheit's

Scott_MacAlliston

On Jan 22, 2012 @ 11:51PM

Seriously Scott,
putting more stuff on the Cover of a Book is a safe way to get potential buyers confused. I am a bookseller for 8 years now, and have seen it happen many times, too many times...
I side with Mr. Fahrenheit. Come up with 4 Icons, each for every Era and put that Icon/Logo on the Spine of the Books.
Then add a Timeline in the Front or the Back of a Book. The Expanded Universe Timeline of StarWars is very, very good and quite easy to decipher.

And u can include the newest timeline with every reprint of the current edition.
That way you can avoid the problem, with a non up to date timeline in older books.

Hope that helps.

Cheers from good old Germany.
(Sorry for my english, its quite early over here ;-))

Spyder

On Jan 27, 2012 @ 5:51PM

I like the date system idea, but I absolutely think (and agree with what's been said above) that the book cover is the worst place to put a big numbering system. You could perhaps get away with dates on a cover but not things like "book 3.1 of series x". The cover of a book should be the best thing for that book, not the series as a whole.

I would prefer to see the index and grouping of the universe on this website, and mentioned with a URL in your books. This has huge beneits:

Everything can be fully dynamic as the universe expands; grouped by era, original release date or even gender if you really want. A variety of ways to view the same big list.
Someone who picks up a book and loves it can easily find more.
Someone who picks up a book but isn't interested in reading other sigler books isn't burdened with a complicated system of indexing.

I just don't think attempting to create a dynamic and flexible system that lives on the cover of static paper books will ever work. It might sound cool to us geeks, but it's adding unnecessary complexity when there are better alternatives.

my blog

occupy_my_rocktopi

On Jan 30, 2012 @ 1:01PM

So how will this affect books like The Rookie hardcover, which has already come out and been sold out. Will there be a second run on those in hardcover? Like I said in my earlier post, I think junkies already know and understand the Siglerverse enough to not worry about beiing confused. But for the uninitiated....